Been thinking of this Japanese based philosophy tonight, in regards to the impermanence of wet plate ambrotypes covered with asphaltum.
I posted a video of myself applying asphaltum to the collodion side of an ambrotype, just like they did in olden times. As expected many people got a tad upset with that vid. I thought I would post the discussion here. Everyone made some interesting points, I think we just have different agendas. Depending on what your doing with the ambros, decides other things.
I probably should not be so passionate with the elders of the medium, the pioneers, but heck if your not passionate about your art, why do it?
Anyway have a read.
Well, it’s interesting and entertaining to watch! I’ll give it that!
Keep us posted on how it goes!
JA will make a vid when they are finished!
Bigger brush might help if that's your technique
VV yes, this was all I could find a 630am. Got to to get something bigger.
MM
I pour out like a collodion, only rarer.
MM yes that is the other way I might go. Might give a more even and balanced coating with a pour/flow system. But painting it on might be easier with ver large plates.
LG
Man .the Sulfur…. The Silentkiller of most photographs
LG sulfur!!
LG
Gerry Yaum OK here’s a little question what is Asphalt made of? Do you remember acid rain? What was the cause of it burning fossil fuels maybe?. What is asphalt made of? Know if your plates are varnished first then this point is moot. We’ve been through this so many times.
LG I meant NO ADDED solvents by using straight asphaltum. There are less solvents as NO EXTRA SOLVENTS ARE ADDED to the mix. Is that not correct? I think we had this same discussion a while back when I spoke about my NO ADDED ether to G Collodion (alcohol based). Of course there is ether in the raw collodion as there are solvents in the raw Asphaltum, but by not adding extra solvents or extra ether we have less of both. Correct? That is my thinking anyway. The plates have been varnished 2 times, thinking of doing 3. Not sure how much the extra varnish levels help, if at all. Thought it could not hurt.
KFr
We are following
EB
You are aware that all images coated in this way do not survive?
LG
EB I have told him I have told him I have told him I have told him I have told him. 
PB
E, like L I have also told Gerry, but just once…
LG
PB In all fairness. This is on the glass side probably. Not on the Claudian site as he is doing. If it’s on the Collodion side it’s even worse. Those images for thrown away along time ago . Collodion without varnish. asphalt street onto the Collodion with no varnish is doomed to failure in just a few years. I’ve done acceleration tests at the Getty Museum. I’ve told everybody this. Shown the examples. But this battle comes up because of the ears over and over and over and over and over again. Frankly it’s annoying. People do what they want to do. I believe this is my last time
PB
LG that one I posted was the one that France used as an example.
FSO
LG no - can you see that the varnish is peeling and taking the image with it?
LG
FSO Honestly I did not look at it that closely. You are right of course images coming off asphalt and varnish at the same time. But so often the asphalt flakes off leaving the varnish and the image in tact. 90% of the Failuresyou see you like this I have this in common.
FSO
L it depends on how its applied; if its applied directly on the collodion image or on the varnish - but I wouldn’t do it in any case. Why risk it? Unless you just don’t give a shit about your work…
Gerry Yaum…. Why risk it? Simple because it produces the most wonderous blacks, because it makes the most beautiful visuals, images and art. That is why. It is not because I do not give a shit about my work, it is because I care more about it. I feel Aspaltum applied this way is more BEAUTIFUL, tells the story more completely and with more power.
Gerry you make a lot of assumptions and know nothing about our work
Gerry Yaum How many times have I told you there are other ways to do it because that are better. Safer last longer and give you the same look. But you just keep at it and at it and at it. The best thing you can do is show us something beautiful that you’ve accomplished. I’ve seen plenty of digital work that you’ve done that is very special because of the subject matter. Still looking for anything else. I am done here I am cooked. Finished. On the do not call list.
GY
L
As to the reference to my digital work in Asia. I have only been taking digital photos since 2018. I have been a film/darkroom guy since 1978. So the analogue far out ways the rest.
FSO not talking about your work, you misunderstand. I apologize if you took it that way. I am talking about my work. I find the asphaltum covered blacks more beautiful. With the blacks being are more beautiful, the work is more powerful. I feel this obsession with archivability can have a negative effect on the creative process. People are more worried about something lasting 500 years than creating something that is special for the moment. The work should always come first, the creation of important images, now-today, should be all that matters, all the rest of it is secondary. In my opinion. Of course you do not want to create stuff that will have no lasting lifetime, but gosh how long is long enough? There needs to be a certain amount of balance.
Luther Gerlach for example? every way I have tried does not have the same look. The only thing I want to try yet is a separate sheet of glass behind the original, that is covered in asphaltum, none applied to the original plate. The distance will probably reduce the blacks, but I will try it anyway. I have also tried cloth, I have tried velvet, I have tried inks, I have tried flat plates (black glass and tintypes) none appeal to me as a clear glass coated image with asphaltum on it. Another huge advantage of going reversed clear glass I have not mentioned, is the fact that everything is the right way around, no goofy backwards writing, which I find very distracting. Is there a method I am missing? If so I will try that as well, Thanks for your help.
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| Slightly damaged 100 plus year old image. |
Luther
As to the digital. I have only been taking digital photos since 2018. I have been a film/darkroom guy since 1978. So the analogue far out ways the rest.
LG
FSO That’s exactly what I said. Absolutely no different.
FSI
L lol you are funny; my point is I wouldn’t do it in any case. Theres no guarantee it will not be affected even if varnished first.
EB all images do not survive? I have dozens of ambrotypes well over 120-150 years old coated with asphaltum that have survived. Some have
minor damage but they still hold the wonder. That is not long enough for you? It is for me. I have never understood the obsession wet players have with archival craziness. If some thing survives almost twice as long as I will, what’s wrong with that?seems plenty long to me. This obsession with archival ness misses the main point. The main point in making art is not creating something that will last 50000 years but to create art that personally moves and inspires you and others. For me tintypes, clear glass ambrotypes coated on the backside and coloured glass ambrotypes all are lacking. They do not have the same magic, the same unbelievable beauty of ambrotypes coated with asphaltum on the collodion side. I find the other versions rather flat and timid, lacking depth, everything backwards, which for me is just weird and rather annoying. With the asphaltum collodion covered type work you get MAGIC!!! You get a 3D, right way round A MOMENT IN TIME CAUGHT INSUDE THE GLASS!!! For me that is the wonder and joy of it, it makes the endless effort of creating these things worthwhile. Imagine that a special moment caught for over 100 years INSIDE THE GLASS!!!!!!! That to me is what make ambrotypes a wonder and a joy. it makes them artistically moving and exciting. Those type images bring a tear to my eye. When they eventually do perish, so be it, such is life. A glorious star that burns brighter dies sooner!
FSO
Gerry we work closely with photograph conservators that’s why. Plus we sell our work to museums and collectors and only want to sell something that will last. Some asphalt covered plates will last but many will not. (Many you have not seen likely have been tossed.) As far as the beauty of asphalt covered plates? - that’s your aesthetic, so your choice. 
LG
FSI yes. I Agree.
LG
FSO once again I agree completely. As I said all the bad ones have been thrown away already. Ones that did not survive did not survive. We only see the leftovers the ones that succeeded to some extent not to be thrown away. There are so many other better ways to solve and get the same results. Why not do them.
LG
Gerry Yaum Honestly my friend. You do you. It’s amazing how Fast some of the decay that you will see on your plates will happen. I know this from experience. I’ve been doing this a while so has France. You’re still in the learning process of producing images that succeed at all. Best of luck with everything bye-bye
LG 100 years ain't enough for you? it is for me Luther....what it comes down to is what I stated earlier to Eric..." If some thing survives almost twice as long as I will, what’s wrong with that? Seems plenty long to me. This obsession with archival ness misses the main point. The main point in making art is not creating something that will last 50000 years but to create art that personally moves and inspires you and others. For me tintypes, clear glass ambrotypes coated on the backside and coloured glass ambrotypes all are lacking. They do not have the same magic, the same unbelievable beauty of ambrotypes coated with asphaltum on the collodion side. I find the other versions rather flat and timid, lacking depth, everything backwards, which for me is just weird and rather annoying. With the asphaltum collodion covered type work you get MAGIC!!! You get a 3D, right way round A MOMENT IN TIME CAUGHT INSUDE THE GLASS!!! For me that is the wonder and joy of it, it makes the endless effort of creating these things worthwhile. Imagine that a special moment caught for over 100 years INSIDE THE GLASS!!!!!!! That to me is what make ambrotypes a wonder and a joy. it makes them artistically moving and exciting. Those type images bring a tear to my eye. When they eventually do perish, so be it, such is life. A glorious star that burns brighter dies sooner!"
FSO Yes I am sure your right France, your the expert. My point thou is why make art that you find only so so? Frankly I find tintypes and black glass imagery where the collodion is flat on the surface very 2D, very RC photo paper like, it is lacking, missing something. If the "inside the glass" image does not last as long, so be it. The goal of an artist should be to make something that they feel deeply. You got to make art that you think is the most important, not because it will sell, not because it is more archival, but because it moves you, because it pushes you forward, because it inspires, because it fills your heart with happiness. If you look at it a certain way, the fact the piece has a timeline before destruction, makes it that much more precious and joyful to hold and look at. It is like a wilting flower, beautiful for a time before it dies, as we all do.
FSO
LG
Asphalt never really fully outcasts. It keeps on shrinking year after year after year after year. It’s a petroleum product. This can crack and take the image with it. 
AW
LG I have several precious for me plates (my parents among them) taken on clear glass, varnished, asphaltum coated. Do you thing it is wise to wash the asphaltum off with naftha to protect them from disaster?
LG
Personally I would just be around to fix the problem if it occurs . Chances are the varnish will give them a good protection. Just keep on looking at them every year or so and see if you notice any change.
AW
LG thanks! I have them on the wall in the living. I see them everyday
FSO
A is the asphaltum coated over the image or on the glass side?
LG I have dozens of ambrotypes over 100 years old that look fine, look good, still inspire...is that not enough for you? This obsession with archival ness is a bit excessive, and a tad pretentious. This Idea that my work should last forever, kind of seems "full of myself". To create something that you find the most beautiful (clear glass ambrotypes coated on the collodion side with asphaltum) that has a 100 year lifespan, seems beautiful to me. To each his own thou, we all see beauty in different ways. Just do not let the tech stuff take over the heart stuff, all art is based on heart. Leonardo's last supper started dying in his lifetime, it continues to die but does that make it any less glorious as a moving piece of art...NOPE, NO!! Not comparing anything created now in wet plate to Leonardo but the idea is on point. Collodion people, do not get so hooked on the technical that you lose the heart in your art.
§ Like
LG
Gerry Yaum Hey we’ll go at this. Leonardo did not know and have the history and understanding through science of his paints and understand the wetness of a substrate to know what was going to happen. I guarantee you if he knew he wouldn’t of painted it that way . Having science on your side And the gift of knowledge of what has come before is a gift. I am not hung up on Archival. Most wet platers Don’t even think about it. Though I do have two masters degrees in science. I gave you a gift of knowledge. You do you.. As they said you do you. This is what I shot today. In the very last minutes of the day along two minute long exposure. No big deal it was just fun. The proof is in the pudding. As I said you do you have fun.
LG I think Leonardo would have done it his way regardless, he was a very stubborn and independent dude. He used an innovative way to do the fresco, not the traditional way. What I have read is that his way allowed him to make changes as the Last Supper as the fresco did not dry as fast. So the Last Supper might not have been as great as it was without the ability to make those subtle changes. He probably made a greater painting by choosing to go the way he went. Lovely image by the way...like the foreground tree the best...leads you into a feeling of "peacefulness".
LG
Gerry Yaum Experimentation is what he did. Hoping for the best. It allowed him to get the job done. And the way he needed to get it done. He hoped for the best.
LG
Gerry Yaum Leonardo paint the last supper with dry pigment. He worked incredibly slow. He knew that he would never finish it as he never finished anything that he ever started to do. This allowed him to work faster and he just hoped that he would get the job done so he could get paid and get a move on to other things he wanted to do. He saw that it was failing and continued anyways. Because he had to get it done. He had at that point been accused of sodomy. And all eyes were on him. He was just trying to find a shortcut. Instead of painting and wet plaster that helped bind the pigment. He did what others knew was going to fail. He created a masterpiece certainly. But he even knew that there was better way to do it. He just had to get it done because he was very slow and was always interested in the next thing that came along instead of getting a his job done.
Gerry Yaum Experimentation is what he did. Hoping for the best. It allowed him to get the job done. And the way he needed to get it done. He hoped for the best.
Gerry Yaum Leonardo paint the last supper with dry pigment. He worked incredibly slow. He knew that he would never finish it as he never finished anything that he ever started to do. This allowed him to work faster and he just hoped that he would get the job done so he could get paid and get a move on to other things he wanted to do. He saw that it was failing and continued anyways. Because he had to get it done. He had at that point been accused of sodomy. And all eyes were on him. He was just trying to find a shortcut. Instead of painting and wet plaster that helped bind the pigment. He did what others knew was going to fail. He created a masterpiece certainly. But he even knew that there was better way to do it. He just had to get it done because he was very slow and was always interested in the next thing that came along instead of getting a his job done.
MM
Are we talking about syrian asphalt all the time? Or is it petroleum?
MM Syrian asphalt? What is that Miroslaw, please share.
MM
Gerry Yaum There is a lot of information on the internet. 
MM thanks...
MM? Where do you get ancient egypt mummy asphaltum? Amazon? https://chempedia.info/info/asphalt_syrian/
CHEMPEDIA.INFO
Syrian asphalt - Big Chemical Encyclopedia
Syrian asphalt - Big Chemical Encyclopedia
MM
Gerry Yaum I only did a few plates. There is also a Canadian balm in the recipe. I am surprised because the Canadian balm is very expensive. I only found one for gluing lenses in the lens. Maybe there is another, cheaper one?
MM
Gerry Yaum Syrian bitumen is available in shops for artists.
MM Thanks..Miroslaw..will look...I can use it for my mummie as well if needed.
SW
Adrienne Lundgren
I am still making tons of mistakes, figuring things out and solving countless problems but the images are starting to come, so the AMBROTOS KANATA cross Canada wet plate project is moving forward, thanks to all of you.
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| HF3535 Camera. |
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| 16x20 Chamonix Camera with 450mm lens. |
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| Quinn Quick Clear and Gerry Collodion. |
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| Camera condom. |
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| View of work area. |
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| View of view. |
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| 8x10 ambros. |
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| Location of shoot. |
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| Temp and humidity at a location, both important in ambrotype production. |
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| Dim Sum looking for a chip monk to kill, or anything else. |
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| Pre visualizing an image. |
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| Protecting the 16x20 camera from a rain storm. |
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| First 12x20 wet plate image, c;lear glass ambrotype. |
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| 20x24 silver tank in the trailer. Will I kick it over in the dark? |
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| 16x20 with 450mm lens. |
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| 16x20 Chamonix with vintage brass lens. |
Picked up two large, used, horse tack boxes. 36 inches long, 24 inches, 25 inches tall. 3/4 inch plywood with metal supports all round. Each...
